The issue of proof that Obama is a "natural born citizen" and therefore not eligible to be President (as required by our Constitution) is questionable for the following reasons;
- Obama has refused to authorize release of his Hawaii Certificate of Live Birth
- He has released a Hawaii Certification of Live Birth
- The Hawaii CERTIFICATION is different from the Hawaii CERTIFICATE
- The CERTIFICATE shows Doctor's name & Hospital's name (allowing further verification of actual birth location)
- By Hawaii Statute ([§338-17.8] Certificates for children born out of State.) it is possible for foreign born children to be issued CERTIFICATION (not CERTIFICATES) of birth as long as .....
- "a) Proof has been submitted to the director of health that the legal parents of such individual while living without the Territory or State of Hawaii had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immediately preceding the birth "
- "b) Proof of legal residency shall be submitted to the director of health in any manner that the director shall deem appropriate"
- This system makes it possible for children born in foreign countries to claim birth in Hawaii !!!
- It does NOT circumvent the U.S. Constitution's requirement for being a "natural born Citizen"
- Obama's refusal to authorize the release of his Certificate of Live birth raises the probability that it does not exist.
Re: "Hawaii does not accept a Certification of Live Birth, on its own merits, as proof that one was born in Hawaii."
ReplyDeleteTotal lie. Every department in Hawaii accepts the Certification of Live Birth as proof of birth in Hawaii, if the certification says "born in Hawaii." And the US State Department and the branches of the US Military accept the certification as proof of birth in the USA, so long as it says "born in Hawaii" on it, and Obama's says "born in Honolulu, Hawaii."
The Certification of Live Birth is now the official birth certificate of Hawaii, and it is the only one that Hawaii sends out. http://www.starbulletin.com/features/20090606_kokua_line.html
Hawaii contributes to the confusion. On Mr Obama's Certification of Live Birth, the document refers to itself as a Certificate.
ReplyDeleteIn 1961, Certification of Live Birth was available for Americans born overseas, but whose birth was registered in the United States. Once again, Hawaii is very unhelpful.
Mr Obama's father was a British subject. So Mr Obama may be subject to the Crown as well (very poor taste to give his queen an iTunes).
The Obama administration continually stonewalls release. The lingering question is why?
Mr Obama's supporters are baffled by the importance of open government, something they generally demanded of Republican administrations. Hypocrisy or inattention?
Where is the lie you claim?
ReplyDeleteIt matters not what is accepted today in Hawaii. All Departments in Hawaii, the State Dept. and the U.S. military may well now accept the electronic stored and generated CERTIFICATION as sufficient evidence of Hawaii birth, HOWEVER, that was obviously not the case in 1961, before the now all pervasive computer was in use.
Most assuredly, IF HE WAS ACTUALLY BORN IN HAWAII, a CERTIFICATE (NOT A CERTIFICATION) was issued in 1961. There may well exist a CERTIFICATION today, but IF HE WAS BORN IN HAWAII in 1961, a CERTIFICATE also exists, or did at one time.
However, if he was not born in Hawaii, then NO CERTIFICATE is possible, only a CERTIFICATION.
The fact remains, if Obama would provide his CERTIFICATE of Live Birth, the issue would be settled. But he refuses.
Re: “HOWEVER, that was obviously not the case in 1961, before the now all pervasive computer was in use.”
ReplyDeleteThis is a red herring.
The facts are that Hawaii now sends out only the Certification of Live Birth, which it now considers the official birth certificate of Hawaii. (http://www.starbulletin.com/features/20090606_kokua_line.html).
That document is what it sends out to everyone regardless of their age. A person could have received the original birth certificate in 1909 and asked for a copy of it today, and she or he would receive the Certification of Live Birth.
Obama was born in 1961 and asked Hawaii for a copy of his birth certificate in 2007 or 2008, and Hawaii send him the Certification of Live Birth. This, as I pointed out, is accepted as proof of birth in Hawaii by all the departments of Hawaii (Yes, including DHHL; I checked), and it is accepted as proof of birth in the USA by the State Department for issuing passports.
Your next point is: “IF HE WAS ACTUALLY BORN IN HAWAII, a CERTIFICATE (NOT A CERTIFICATION) was issued in 1961. There may well exist a CERTIFICATION today, but IF HE WAS BORN IN HAWAII in 1961, a CERTIFICATE also exists, or did at one time.”
Yes. It did, and it does (or a digitized copy of it), and a copy of that is in Obama’s file. The fact is that Hawaii does not send it out anymore. The official birth certificate of Hawaii is the Certification. It is all that Hawaii sends out. So, unless Obama has a copy of the original, saved from the time of birth and not lost (and many of us do lose our original birth certificate), then all that he can get is the one that Hawaii SENDS, and that is only the Certification.
Re: “The fact remains, if Obama would provide his CERTIFICATE of Live Birth, the issue would be settled. But he refuses.”
NO he did not refuse. He provided (posted and showed to FactCheck and Polifact) the birth certificate that Hawaii sent him. This is not refusing to post a birth certificate. This is posting a birth certificate, the official birth certificate.
It is also posting the only birth certificate that Obama can show unless he has a copy of the original himself and not lost it. If he lost the original, then he can only post what Hawaii sent him, which was the Certification.
However, the Certification is both a legal document and it has been confirmed as stating that Obama was born in Hawaii by the two officials who looked into the file.
Re: "In 1961, Certification of Live Birth was available for Americans born overseas, but whose birth was registered in the United States. Once again, Hawaii is very unhelpful."
ReplyDeleteIf you are saying that in 1961 Hawaii issued a Certification of Live Birth (or any birth certificate, ANY birth certificate) to people who were born outside of Hawaii, that is not true. The law that allowed that was not passed until 1982.
I do not disagree that Hawaii NOW sends out CERTIFICATIONs. That is not the issue.
ReplyDeleteThe issue is the ORIGINAL Certificate of Live Birth. Obama can either provide us his own copy of the Original, or ask Hawaii to release the original. I do not believe the originals have been destroyed. The original format contained Doctor's name and Hospital name..... information of value in trying to verify that he was in fact born in Hawaii.
You assert, regarding the existence of that original that "Yes it did, and it does and a copy of that is in Obama's file". Good. We are making progress.
Now, please release that document so that whatever it says about his birth Doctor and Hospital can be independently verified.
If as you apparently claim, Hawaii has already done that, please provide a citation for that source. I see no evidence that the original has ever been released.
To my knowledge, Hawaii has said only "it has Obama's original Birth Certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures". That original could be from anywhere. It could be from Hawaii. It could be from Kenya. Nowhere has the State verified that he was actually born in Hawaii...... only that they have "a Birth Certificate" on file.
Again...... Obama can cut through all of this by authorizing release of that ORIGINAL CERTIFICATE which we now know exists ..... yet he refuses. Why?
Re: "Obama can either provide us his own copy of the Original, or ask Hawaii to release the original."
ReplyDeleteIF Obama has a copy of the original, he can provide it, but we do not know that he does.
He can, of course, ask Hawaii to release the original, which it does not do for anyone else. He can ask, but they will not necessarily agree.
More important is the fact that you or I or anyone can ask Hawaii to release the original. We have the right to petition the government of Hawaii to release the original, and if necessary to change the law or the regulations in order to do so.
I would be delighted if Hawaii were to change the rules to release the original because I am convinced because of what the two officials who looked into the file said and because in 1961 a foreign birth certificate could not be filed, and because there is no evidence that Obama was born anywhere other than Hawaii, that the original in the file will show that he was born in Hawaii.
The only problem is that some people think that releasing the original is unnecessary because (1) the Certification is THE legal birth certificate and because (2) its facts have been confirmed.
That's what I think and probably what Obama thinks. So, it is up to you and to the others who think that there is something unusual in the file to petition Hawaii to change the rules.
Re: "Obama can cut through all of this by authorizing release of that ORIGINAL CERTIFICATE which we now know exists ..... yet he refuses. Why?"
As noted above. Obama cannot authorize Hawaii to release the original. He can request that Hawaii release the original, which it does not do for anyone else.
Re: "That original could be from anywhere. It could be from Hawaii. It could be from Kenya."
NO it could not be from Kenya. In 1961, Hawaii did not allow a foreign birth certificate to be filed in a Hawaiian birth certificate file. In 1961, ONLY children born in Hawaii received Hawaiian birth certificates. (Don't bring up Sun Yat Sen; that was nearly 60 years before, and there is evidence that Hawaii required proof of birth in Hawaii to issue a birth certificate that said "born in Hawaii" in 1961).
Moreover, a representative of the State of Hawaii DID say that Obama was born in Hawaii. She said it in an interview with the Chicago Tribune. http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/11/obama_hawaaianborn_citizen_for.html
Re: "it does and a copy of that is in Obama's file".
I said that the original was in the file (perhaps it is a digitized image of the original paper document now), and I stick by it. But, as I also said, it is the policy of Hawaii not to release the original. It has not released the original, and it did not release the original to Obama, and it will not release the original or a copy of the original to anyone else who asks for a copy of the original.
The only way to get them to release the original, which will show that Obama was born in Hawaii, is to get them to change the rules to release it.
Other than YOUR assertion that Hawaii will NOT issue a copy of an original birth certiuficate on file, what statute or other evidence have you that that is the case? Please cite relevant statutes or even rules?
ReplyDeleteI did not say that all of the possible fraud took place at birth in 1961. In fact there is ample evidence that NO copy of any Hawaii birth document for Obama existed before 2007 when the much circulated CERTIFICATION of Live Birth appeared.
There is currently NO evidence that an original, long form, CERTIFICATE of live birth exists.
As for "you, I or anyone" asking Hawaii to release a copy of the original.... that is being tried regularly by various media investigators. They are currently barred from entering either of the two hospitals Obama'a "friends" have reported as his birthplace.
You said "a representative of the State of Hawaii DID say that Obama was born in Hawaii". No, you are reading what you want to read into the representative's words. The quotation in the newspaper is "a Hawaiin official has confirmed she has 'personally seen and verified' that the state 'has Sen. Obama's original birth certificate' ". The representative DID NOT SAY that the "original" shows he was born in Hawaii. In fact is does not say that it is even a Hawaiin birth certificate.
The world awaits the unveiling of his ORIGINAL CERTIFICATE of Live Birth giving the name of the Doctor and Hospital in Hawaii in which Obama was born, which is the crux of the issue.
Re: "Other than YOUR assertion that Hawaii will NOT issue a copy of an original birth certiuficate on file, what statute or other evidence have you that that is the case?"
ReplyDeleteHere is an article quoting an official of the Department of Health of Hawaii who says that they no longer send out anything but the Certification of Live Birth. http://www.starbulletin.com/features/20090606_kokua_line.html
There is currently NO evidence that an original, long form, CERTIFICATE of live birth exists.'
This is not true. Dr Fukino said that he and the other official had seen the original in Obama's file. (This may be a digitized copy of the original, not the paper copy, but it is a copy of the original.)
She said that she and the other official "have personally seen and verified that the Hawai'i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama's original birth certificate on record.
And, if you read the following article, you will see that the spokeswoman for the department said that the fact that there was an original birth certificate on file MEANT that Obama was born in Hawaii. (http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/11/obama_hawaaianborn_citizen_for.html)
The article reads:
Does this mean Obama was born in Hawaii?
"Yes," said Hawaii Health Department spokeswoman Janice Okubo, in both email and telephone interviews with the Tribune. "That's what Dr. Fukino is saying."
Re: "In fact is does not say that it is even a Hawaiin birth certificate."
Yes, but two things: (1) The statement by Okubo said that the presence of an original in the file MEANT that Obama was born in Hawaii, and (2) in 1961, which was when Obama was born, Hawaii did not allow foreign birth certificates to be filed. It did not allow the registration of a birth outside of Hawaii until the law was changed in 1982.
Re: "The world awaits the unveiling of his ORIGINAL CERTIFICATE of Live Birth giving the name of the Doctor and Hospital in Hawaii in which Obama was born, which is the crux of the issue.'
Hawaii does not send it out. I suggest you petition Hawaii to change its rules to send it out.